From: J Kalberg (jk@informationwarfare.com)
Date: Fri May 12 2006 - 13:32:34 EDT
I believe less and less in certs because as Sean points out;
"Luckily the school also teaches Security++, and he's good with
XP so he switches to that instead, and uses a cheat sheet to pass."
I think you hade to do the security training at grad schools because
otherwise you don't reach that high up on the ladder; theory, methodology,
tools and implementation. Maybe just tools. Security is quite
challenging intellectually.
I understand that security is hands on to a high degree but the
problem if you fly at too low altitude the overall system becomes
weak because it is not cybernetic and will eventually fail so then it
is just hand labor delaying failure.
Some years spent at a decent school outnumbers any cert.
JK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benson, Sean M" <BensonS@state.gov>
To: "McLaurin, Timothy" <tMcLaurin@citi-us.com>
Cc: <pen-test@securityfocus.com>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
Case in point:
You've got a B.S. in infosys, yet due to the certs, you have to go get them to break through the HR
barrier.
You've put in ~4 years, paid thousands, and have been given all the basics, you should be hired and
tutored and begin your career. (as you would have before certs really exploded on the scene.)
but instead, after all that accredited schooling, you have to go out to some (maybe) sleazy tech
school and get a cert that means little.
Which side are you a victim of?
Bob Smith goes to a trucking school, decides it just too damn hard.
Luckily the school also teaches Security++, and he's good with XP so he switches to that instead,
and uses a cheat sheet to pass.
Now,
What's the sense in the HR director passing forward his resume and not yours?
You both have the same work experience.
I'd much rather interview you, but the HR director reads "HR&PHB Monthly", which says Security++ is
TEH Cert for '06, and files you in unacceptable.
Straw man argument, I know, but still.
That is one broken system.
Good luck, Tim
Strive to be wheat not chaff.
sbenson
-----Original Message-----
From: McLaurin, Timothy [mailto:tMcLaurin@citi-us.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:41 PM
To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
Yup, I'm that guy.
I know a lot of you feel that certifications mean nothing now-days. But I think that you guys are
looking at certs through a different filter. If I didn't go out and get an MCSE I may very well
still be working at Circuit City even with my B.S. in Information Systems. Before I got my cert I
got less than a bite for my hundreds of resume' submittals. Before I got my CCNA I didn't even get
the opportunity to touch a router or a switch.
So yeah, I still don't know how to do certain fundamental things but how will I get the opportunity
to learn if no one gives me a shot without a cert.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a lot about a lot....I'm trying to break into security
now and I'm having a hard time figuring out where to start...so I go back to what got me where I am
so far....certifications.
So it's all relative. Certifications still have their value for some. But we need to invest more
in people than in paper.
-----Original Message-----
From: Benson, Sean M [mailto:BensonS@state.gov]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:09 AM
To: Serge Vondandamo; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
Two words. Test king.
All you addressed can be seen in a descriptive resume.
I find some people I've interviewed have certs but no real world experience to back it up.
and when you ask interview questions, it's usually a test-king type answer.
Rote-memorization is no replacement for the Geek gene.
A couple of years ago I was working in Central Asia, I went to a Sylvan certified learning center
and asked to take a test.
It was $100.00 plus $50.00 for the guy who would be taking the test for me.
They were shocked I wanted to take my own test.
After all, as the guy stated: "Dimitri scores so high, it's better for you."
In the U.S., it's normal to see a test king poking out from the study guide of a lot of students in
certification classes.
It's a duck shoot.
If the guy has a buttload of certs, but 4 months experience doing simple telephone support work give
him a chance, ask good questions, find out if he really knows his stuff, if he does, hire him.
On the flip-side, don't block out the guy who works so hard at an ISP he doesn't have time to study.
I know computer gods who don't have some certs because they are working in the field.
Theo de-Raadt, Linus Torvalds, Andrew Morton, Andrew Tridgell ad infinitum...
These guys wouldn't get a resume in the door if there's certain certification requirements.
sbenson
(Disclaimer: Theo would probably drive his car (or bike)through the front door of the business and
get an interview.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Serge Vondandamo [mailto:serge.vondandamo@wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:29 PM
To: Benson, Sean M; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
All,
I don't know if people contributing in this thread have gone through recent certification process or
not. Believe me; the process itself adds value to the person taking it. And that is where HR sticks.
Before even the idea to be certified will start arising, one must have known the materials and
touched the technology. I don't believe that a carpenter will wake up in a morning and start
thinking about getting certified as a security professional and earn the certificate without knowing
the materials.
I agree that old certs exams used to be fancy and easy and, that some folks may have limited
understanding of the concepts and hands-on skills but one thing I am sure is that, they KNOW the
materials! And going trough a cert process will help them improve, increase and fill the gap!
So, by the time they got certified they surely gain more in their understanding and use of the
materials.
That is why HRs like certified people and that is also why the industry wants us to be certified.
Make no mistakes here, knowing the materials only is not enough, one must go trough a certification
process and get certified.
I am proud to be a certified security professional :)
Serge Vondandamo, CISSP, CCNA
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Benson, Sean M [mailto:BensonS@state.gov] Envoyé : mercredi 10 mai 2006 16:32 À :
pen-test@securityfocus.com Objet : RE: CISSP-ISSMP
All,
I think there's a point that was touched upon but not followed through.
Certs are sort of new to the scene. (relatively)
I'm certified out the wazoo, but I hardly even mention it.
Why? I have a resume and references.
Certs are a multi-million dollar business, from university of phoenix MCSEs to Certified spyware
inspectors.
It's a scam.
Learn a useless cert from a useless certified instructor because network world said this is needed
and your furute PHB read the damn article.
Unfortunately we will have to do it until people get wise.
And as it's HR pogues and PHBs that we are waiting for, it may be a really long time.
I've been around since Noah's animal inventory system version 1.0 was first fuzzed.
and I can give one peice of advice:
Do good work, study constantly, learn the systems, keep your references and resumes up to date, and
when enough certified boobs break things, then it will be the resumes/references that help separate
the wheat from the chaff.
sbenson
BOFH+
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright@bdosyd.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:57 PM
To: Bob Radvanovsky; Nathaniel Hirsch
Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
Hi,
Although I agree with much of what you have said, it needs to be taken
into context. Unless there is some focus on the question, there will be
no correlation to the answers.
First as to not wanting ""generalists". They want "specialists"." This
is wholly dependant on the organisation, the size and the focus. Whilst
true in many larger organisations, it is generally not so in SME's where
a limit to staffing precludes having a specialised IT function for each
IT discipline.
If you want to get more money this is another issue. I have never
received a job or a pay rise for industry certs. Any rise that I have
received would have occurred either way. Having completed a MMgt (Master
of Management, similar to a specialist MBA) I have found that this has
aided my career more than any of the certs.
>From a point of view of risk and security, the LLM I am currently
completing has added far more value to clients than any of the certs,
and thus helps my career more. It is amazing how much more you can get
done arguing legal and contract requirements with an outsource vendor
than trying to enforce firewall rules etc on a purely technical basis.
For those out there wanting to get into the Digital forensic sciences, a
law degree or two will do more for your career than a whole bag of
industry certs.
A PhD will get 5-10% (averaged) income greater than a standard Masters
of the same discipline. As far as cost effectiveness, the time to
undertake the degree and the costs associated with completing it make it
unlikely that you will earn more over your life. Why do it? There are a
number of reasons. Myself, I am involved in both industry and academia,
and for the most part I enjoy a mix of business and academic life.
Statistics training should be a requirement PRIOR to allowing people to
spurt off on their interpretation of statistical data and it should be
mandated before people are allowed to start one of the generally flawed
studies that abound.
So why do "I" pay the extra for an ISSMP (which incidentally I do not
use on my card etc). Because I wanted it. Because I can deduct half on
tax and have the other half paid for anyway.
Regards,
Craig
PS As for research masters and esp. doctoral degrees, I have had 1
employer (ever) read any of my dissertations (and he only read the first
3 chapters). No client that I know of ever has. Even than, like most
people in the industry with doctorates, my doctorate is not in IT, so
all it shows is "advanced research" training.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Radvanovsky [mailto:rsradvan@unixworks.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 May 2006 11:30 PM
To: Nathaniel Hirsch
Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: Re: CISSP-ISSMP
This doesn't surprise me. Nor does it surprise me that now, many people
are finding out that their certifications are either meaningless, or
have significantly less value than what they were lead to believe. It
is almost like 'snake oil salesmen', promising a cure to an ailment that
sassafrass oil doesn't have any medical correlation with. Certification
companies stipulate that certified people have a better chance at
getting jobs -- not true anymore. A recent survey concluded that people
*are not* getting those jobs based upon their certifications. Some
companies stipulate that certifications may get you more money in places
you are already employed. Again, not true. I have known folks who have
passed their CISSP -- or whathaveyou -- certification, only to have IT
management say "that's nice", and move on. They're still doing the same
job, with no pay increase, and no job structure realignment.
Can't say that I've told many of you that "I told you so" -- but -- "I
told you so". ;P
What companies want are well-rounded people (not literally; if we did,
we'd have a seriously huge problem here) with a balance between
education, certification, experience, know-how, abilities, and
willingness to 'do the right thing'.
Many 'security jobs' are nothing shy than that of an overly glorified
'security guard' job: you sit in front of a desk, and *wait* for a
telephone call or alter to pop up on your monitor screen. It is purely
RE-active, not PRO-active. People feel that if they get a
certification, that they will get a chance at the glitz and glamour, see
the sights, and most importantly, get paid...well. It's all a lie. You
are just another 'security monkey' to The System, and your role is one
of thousands to fulfill a role for something else. Sure, they want you
to get your CISSP (and if you read/listened to what you said, you might
understand what I'm saying here, friend) so they can charge more for
your efforts. The key words here are "charge more for *your* efforts".
Does that mean that *you* will get paid more? Doubtful. If at all, all
you've done is justified your existence in that organization for an <X>
period of time, before they either don't need you any longer, don't want
you any longer, or plan on selling your company. The fact is, you, like
so many out there, believe that all of this will save your sorry butts,
prevent you from getting laid off, and get you some more money. I'm
sorry, but in the world today, that's just sooooo wrong.
Today's scale of economy doesn't work based on the hard work ethic
principle any more. It's much, much different now: "How can I make as
much money as possible, doing the least amount of work possible, while
retaining the least amount of people possible?" Those kinds of
questions are what's going through your manager's or their manager's
minds. There are a few "pockets" out there that reward people for their
hard work and efforts. But let's face it, Corporate America doesn't
care, except for 'bottom line'. That's it. Nothing more.
If you get a certification, or an education somewhere, that's nice.
Good for you! You got it because you *wanted* to get it, because you
feel that it's something that will help you, both externally and (more
importantly) internally. Not because you *think* you will get more
money. If your *sole* purpose is to get money, you're doing it all for
the wrong reasons. The certification companies *want* you to believe
the money idealism at all costs, and, of course, *charge* both you and
organization for getting there. Of course, if you don't get what you
want, you can come back, and take another class, and another, and
another...
Let me share a few insights with you...
I have several degrees, including a Masters of Science degree, with
close to 28 certifications (not all are IT-related). I've been in this
business for OVER 28 years, and have seen all sorts of flim-flam artists
come and go, and people promising the sun, moon and stars. The
certification folks provide *some* utility, but not for what you think
it's for. It's a 'weeding mechanism'; that is, when you get tired at
your currently lillypad, and decide to move to another lillypad, and
there is a tie between you and another candidate, the recruiter or HR
person will look at *both* of your qualficiations and see if there is
something that stands out between the two of you. If you have a
certification, and they don't, and the job stipulates that a
certification is "recommended", it's simple: you -- more than likely --
you might get the job. But then, I've seen other factors play into
things, too. Some companies are cost-conscientious, where 'bottom line'
rules. If the other candidate is a senior-level technician, has 15
years exerpience, and wants $80,000, versus someone else who has 5-7
years experience, and wants only $55,000, then it's really a moot point.
No matter what the person has done, or is capable of doing, companies
will make a decision based *solely* upon the salary and NOT upon the job
qualfications (which I have seen soooo many times in the past). Also,
most recruiters are considered 'technical idiots'; that is, they know
some of the lingo and terms, but cannot figure out if someone is
performing a 'snow job' on them or not. In most cases, it comes down to
the hiring manager to help filter through all the junk, to determine if
someone is (truly) trying to pull a fast one on them. Sooner or later,
the truth comes out if that individual is trying to pull a fast one, but
lately, it doesn't seem to work any more. Also, recruiters and HR
people have 'quotas' -- of course, they'll deny that they have quotas,
but this is bunk. How many times have you applied for a job, only to
find out that there are 6 other ones like the one you are applying for,
different titles, all pointing to the EXACT SAME JOB? This phenomenon
is becoming more and more prevalent these days, thanks for online
job-boards such as Monster of Hotjobs. And, of course, recruiters want
you to work with them because of the 'exclusivity' that they have to
offer. Rrrrrrrrright. The *best* jobs -- believe it not -- never make
it to the recruiter's organization. What the recruiters get are the
'scum jobs' -- the hard-to-fill jobs that no one can, or will want, to
fill. They are simply trying to find a person, who matches <X>% of the
qualifications, to fill that role. Period. End of discussion. It's
all a matter of economics.
I currently work with a 'technical idiot', but this person is shrewd and
cunning. They leave just minutes before an event happens, often times,
leaving me to do all of the work. We are a 'team' -- so long as I do
ALL of the technical grunt work, while he gets to attend meetings and
drink coffee all day (yes, it's striaght out of Dilbert, or the movie
"Office Space", if you've ever watched it -- excellent movie). Doesn't
sound fair, does it? Life isn't fair, and neither is working in a
corporate environment. Get used to it, kiddo. You're going to see more
and more people who have a 'technical IQ' of an ant, but the prowisness
and cunning to that of a puma. Not all IT or IT security people
actually *know* what they're doing. That's why they've got...you.
Many of them, are nothing more than 'paperpushers'; most of them rely on
people like *you* to do the job that they *should* be doing, but fill
other roles like 'customer relations'. Sometimes, it works for the
better. Many (often times, most) times, it does not. Most people and
organizations are lazy, and want to lay claim that it is someone else's
fault for not getting the job done. This is why we have job
segmentation/compartmentalization today. Or haven't you noticed? You
do ONE thing in your job -- THAT'S IT. The Days of Generalized
Specialization are almost dead. Companies don't want "generalists".
They want "specialists". And why do you ask? So, when they have no
further need of your services, they simply get rid of you, your job, or
your position entirely. It's all "ala carte" nowadays. And the
certifications are an almost *direct* correlation to that mindset.
Finally, it's not *what* you know, it's *who* you know that counts these
days, what connections you have, how well-to-do you are, and if you have
any *influence* that you can exert over your 'target' (that being a
manager). And the security industry is no exception. In fact, it's far
more political than standard IT-related work, because of the 'human
factor' involved. You interact with humans more often than computers,
and thus, the amount of politics increases accordingly. It is very
proportional.
Know that you're not the only person who's going through this. Many
other technicians and security folk alike, will probably agree with me
that this is more commonplace today than ever before. Those of us who
are "old farts" (been in 'da biz for more than 10 years), know that
times are changing -- rapidly. I don't what other advise I can give
you, except be flexible, and always keep looking. I've been doing the
same durn thing now for over 15 years. Does it get tiring? You bet it
does, esp. when you aren't appreciated nearly as much as the next
person. But, be thankful that you even have a job in a time when our
jobs are continually being threatened by outsourcing, or worse,
offshoring. Unless you like curry chicken, you have to keep your
options open...and your mouth shut. If you don't like what you have at
your place, move on; otherwise, find ways to work with the
psychodynamics of your workplace, of which there are plenty of books out
there on the subject. ;))
Hope this helped...
-r
----- Original Message -----
From: Nathaniel Hirsch [mailto:nh2@njit.edu]
To: Mohamed Abdel Kader [mailto:makster12@hotmail.com]
Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: Re: CISSP-ISSMP
> I recently got my CISSP. The company that I work for paid for me to
> go to a class, and take the test assuming I passed. If I failed then
> the $500 would be on my nickle. Thankfully I did not fail. The main
> reason they wanted me to get my CISSP is now they can charge more for
> the work they contract me out to, this and you need it or some other
> equivalent to do level 3 and 4 DITSCAP testing. As for an ROI after I
> passed a got a 15% raise which was nice, but I was also up for a
> raise, so I can not tell you how much that was due to the CISSP, and
> how much was due to my overall performance at the company. Personally
> I feel that the exam and certification process is a waste of time, and
> so does everyone else at the company, but they are needed, or so they
> say. However we have a guy who works here who is a CISSP and a
> CEH(certified ethical hacker), and to be truthful, he is quite
> possible the most worthless tester I have ever had to work with, and
> everyone else in the office knows this. So having the cert doesn't
> make you good, and doesn't prove to anyone that you have experience or
> skill. It just proves that you can pick the correct answer out of a
> four possible answer on a 250 question multiple choice exam. As for
> giving an out of 10 scale for everything you mentioned I guess they
> would all be 5s because it all really depends on a lot of other
> things. As for what job its good for, I would have to say more
> managerial then anything else. The topics covered are really only
> puddle deep, not enough to know whats going on, just enough to know
> that it is going on though.
>
>
> Nathaniel Hirsch, CISSP
> Xacta Corporation
> 656 Shrewsbury Ave.
> Shrewsbury, NJ 07702
>
> On 5/8/06, Mohamed Abdel Kader <makster12@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > I was wondering if anyone out there did the CISSP-ISSMP
concentration.
> > I want to know the value added in the areas listed below, in an out
of 10
> > scale for example:
> >
> > Total ROI
> > Career Advancement
> > Industry Demand
> > Raise Potential
> >
> > Suitable for what job/position (not an out of 10 answer of
course :))
> >
> > I also want to know the material to study from.
> >
> > Thanks a million.
> > MAK
> >
> >
>
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-- This List Sponsored by: Cenzic Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request@cenzic.com for details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This List Sponsored by: Cenzic Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request@cenzic.com for details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This List Sponsored by: Cenzic Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request@cenzic.com for details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This List Sponsored by: Cenzic Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request@cenzic.com for details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This List Sponsored by: Cenzic Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request@cenzic.com for details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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