From: Angelacci, Anna M. CONT (SPAWAR) (Anna.Angelacci@navy.mil)
Date: Thu May 13 2004 - 08:12:26 EDT
I appreciate this thread and all of you that are working with RFID. Your
input will support me during a tech brief scheduled for tomorrow. This
is just a suggestion to make an attempt to keep this on a professional
level if possible. We all can serve as an asset to one another if we
have less derogatory remarks, less condescending attitudes toward one
another. We can exploit this technology to unlimited levels without
those obstructions. Common base of knowledge will serve us all as a
contributor. This is why I subscribed to Security Focus. My assumption,
all of us are professionals sharing and building a common data base of
knowledge.
My gratitude.
Anna Angelacci, MCT, MCSE, CNE, CCNA, GCIH
ASC Wireless Security Engineer
email: Anna.Angelacci@Navy.mil
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Wireless Solutions Lab 1L7-2,Bldg 3147
SPAWAR Systems Center Charleston
Confidentiality, Availability, Integrity
-----Original Message-----
From: James Hester [mailto:jay.hester@mci.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 4:06 PM
To: stuart@cyberdelix.net; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: RFID Tags
To see the affects of boosting signal strength for a tag go stick your
head in a microwave oven and turn it on. Same thing happens to a tag, if
they are hit with to much of a signal they are burned out. The antenna
i'm working with now will wipe out a tag within a few inches. Boost the
signal and the wipe out factor goes further too.
Yes, security should be built into every system and already has been for
some tags.
What is the point of reading a tag from a $20? You can get the ID off
the $20 but you can't do anything with it unless you have the paper bill
with it. Have you ever gone to a convience store clerk, rattled off the
serial number of a $20 and bought something with it? Unless you can
build the same tech into the bill it is worthless. Same with most other
tag uses.
The tag id is the only data on a tag.. Unless it's a Class II or III
tag.
That is what is meant when I said working with it, you build the system
until it's stable and secure.
>"When the "challenge of security" can cost people money, waste their
>time, violate their privacy, or otherwise, cause them misery, the
>technology should not be used. It's a liability, as the lawsuits that
>will follow will surely prove.
>Deploying a half-baked solution is just not a good idea.
Why do you even own a computer based off what you just said? Look around
you and wake up, advancement is good otherwise we wouldn't have what we
have today. People take the way we live for granted to much.
J
-----Original Message-----
From: lsi [mailto:stuart@cyberdelix.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 7:48 PM
To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: RFID Tags
[collated replies to a number of repondents below]
> It seems to me that some of these attacks sound great at first, but
> break down when you consider how it would REALLY play out. For one,
> if you get
on
> the train and inventory everyone's clothing...how do you know which
> shirt goes with which pants or shoes?
Easy - signal strength.
> As for credit cards, this is extremely easy to deal with. The cards
> themselves that have been seen so far have a very limited range,
> measured
in
> inches. I can think of a wallet design that would shield the cards a
> bit,
It's a plan, but this is just asking for the Black Hat to use a stronger
transceiver. It's just building a higher fence; not really a long-term
solution.
> up against everyone like a comically-indiscreet pickpocket. And this
> all assumes that all the credit cards in the wallet don't respond at
> the same time, on the same frequency, thus garbling the results.
This problem will have been overcome in the design of the RFID, as they
are specifically intended for use in counting large batches of goods.
> I don't think RFID was ever intended to be a feature of security, but
rather
> one of convenience.
Unfortunately, the real world dictates that security be a feature of
pretty well everything.
> Tags have to recive the right signal to transmit the data back. If
> tags could be queried by any device wireless networks (900Mhz) would
> be flooded with 900Mhz tags. Wal-Mart is going with the 915Mhz tags so
> that problem
is
> unacceptable. You have to know what to send a tag to get it to
> respond.
OK, but say the chips are put into cash. Every till on the planet is
gonna know what frequency to use. So, the Black Hat can make a
transceiver for that frequency. Passport RFIDs will also have a
standard frequency - so he can make his transceiver support that
frequency too. In fact, due to the homogenised nature of modern
commerce, there may well only be, in the end, a small number of
frequencies that are used. So Black Hat will end up with the RFID
equivalent of an autorooter. It knows which frequencies are for what,
and it tries them all.
> You run the same risks with using a computer or storing data on any
device,
> including pen and paper. A tag id by itself is worthless unless you
> know exactly what data is stored on it.
I imagine that a database will be built which will list individual
numbers, and ranges of numbers, which are known to correspond to
specific items.
But wait - you're saying the tag ID is not the only data on the tag?
> A RFid tag has big limitations too, once you chop off part of the
> antenna it's worthless. The physics of radio waves limits that.
>
> You can't be tracked "everywhere" you go. It's not cost affective at
> all.
A
> tag will transmit around 9 feet.
My understanding is that if you pump more voltage into your
transmission, the tag will transmit further.
This is because the tag simply receives the signal and, using the power
in the signal it received, transmits its ID. If you exceed the rated
spec by, say, 15%, the tag might transmit 15% further than its rated
range. You might be able to snoop when you should not be able to.
...Or maybe not - that's what the pen-test is for.
> Tags can be shut down (killed) in a second with a reader.
Sweet.
> Instead of fearing new technology, how about working with it to find
> the best ways to use it?
Well, because someone else will be working to find the best way to
*abuse* it, of course. It makes sense to anticipate this activity, so
as not to be burned by it. Again, this is what the pen-test is for.
If it was my system vulnerable to attack, I would be scared, yes.
I don't make a habit of "working with" defective products - I try and
replace them!
> Tech. improves every day, either we can work with it, or fight it and
> go back to the stone age. I would rather work with it so I can have
> the challenge of security then not have advancements at all.
Advancement for advancement's sake alone is Bad.
When the "challenge of security" can cost people money, waste their
time, violate their privacy, or otherwise, cause them misery, the
technology should not be used. It's a liability, as the lawsuits that
will follow will surely prove.
Deploying a half-baked solution is just not a good idea.
Stuart
--- Stuart Udall stuart at@cyberdelix.dot net - http://www.cyberdelix.net/ --- * Origin: lsi: revolution through evolution (192.168.0.2) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- -- Ethical Hacking at the InfoSec Institute. Mention this ad and get $545 off any course! All of our class sizes are guaranteed to be 10 students or less to facilitate one-on-one interaction with one of our expert instructors. Attend a course taught by an expert instructor with years of in-the-field pen testing experience in our state of the art hacking lab. Master the skills of an Ethical Hacker to better assess the security of your organization. Visit us at: http://www.infosecinstitute.com/courses/ethical_hacking_training.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Ethical Hacking at the InfoSec Institute. Mention this ad and get $545 off any course! All of our class sizes are guaranteed to be 10 students or less to facilitate one-on-one interaction with one of our expert instructors. Attend a course taught by an expert instructor with years of in-the-field pen testing experience in our state of the art hacking lab. Master the skills of an Ethical Hacker to better assess the security of your organization. Visit us at: http://www.infosecinstitute.com/courses/ethical_hacking_training.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ethical Hacking at the InfoSec Institute. Mention this ad and get $545 off any course! All of our class sizes are guaranteed to be 10 students or less to facilitate one-on-one interaction with one of our expert instructors. Attend a course taught by an expert instructor with years of in-the-field pen testing experience in our state of the art hacking lab. Master the skills of an Ethical Hacker to better assess the security of your organization. Visit us at: http://www.infosecinstitute.com/courses/ethical_hacking_training.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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