From: Kevin (kevin@kevincomputers.com.sg)
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 08:30:34 EST
Hey James,
I agree on your point that generally pen-testers focus on a
vulnerability once they discover one and try to exploit it, neglecting
the other possible vulnerabilities still lurking around the system.
In fact, a thorough vulnerability assessment and pen-test can take
months if not years, depending on the scale of the infrastructure. Such
a thorough one (if you call it a serious and rigid challenge to your
security wall) should cover all aspects of security, from physical
security to social engineering or even others like dumpster diving, war
dialing and war driving (esp. when the current 11b/g security are still
weak & fragile)
I had been around companies without having to stop for a visitor pass at
the guard room, piggy backing into restricted areas which requires a
card or even a biometric authentication panel. Generally I would say,
social engineering is still the best way to gather information.
The IT security awareness is pathetic here in Singapore, I wonder if
it's the same over your side at US.
Regards,
Kevin
CCNA, CEH, Security+
-----Original Message-----
From: James Taylor [mailto:james_n_taylor@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:50 PM
To: R. DuFresne; Kevin
Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: Email Pen-testing
To drift slightly off topic... For me a vulnerability scan has much more
value
to most companies than a pen test. That is , of course, if you apply
the
principle that a vuln scan should be performed at each perimeter layer,
against
all hosts, then assess the risk by taking each vulnerability discovered
in the
context of the network as a whole.
Too often one hears of a pen test, where as soon as the 'testers' find a
vulnerability, they focus on that one vulnerability and, more likely
than not,
are able to break in to that system. End of pen test. What about the
rest of
the network? A pen test may also be assisted, i.e. they will have some
insider
knowlnedge through the direct relationship. The cost, in time and
manpower, is
high, therefore it goes without saying that the value of the data will
be high,
often meaning that true pen tests are limited to high wealth industries.
A final point is that it's only performed at a single point in time -
networks
are living breathing beings that change on an almost daily basis. Yes,
a
vulnerability may be discovered on a particular day and system,
exploited by
the pentester and closed by the ops team. Surely the time, money and
effort if
often better spent, in the eyes of senior management who want to see
some form
of return for their outlay, by measureing all [known] vulnerabilities
over
time, by performing regular vulnerability scans. Ideally the result
will be a
reduction in overall vulnerabilites, and a picture of where the high,
medium
and low vulnerabilities are in their correct context.
To drift back on topic... With this case in mind, how wide is the scope
of the
test, and how far can one go is all down to what the company wants and
is
prepared to pay for. As long as the company is aware and agrees to what
is
being performed, and what the limitations are, fine. What are attackers
going
to do? Knock on the front door, or perhaps try some social engineering
to see
if there are any other ways in? Most large companies have
'semi-trusted'
connections to third parties, or will take over/merge with other
companies
[make the announcement to the markets], then merge the networks - this
is
public information.
Regards
James Taylor
CISSP
--- "R. DuFresne" <dufresne@sysinfo.com> wrote:
>
> It's about time the industry, IT as a whole comes to understand;
>
> a pentest is something much more then a simple port/vuln scan from
> outside.
>
>
> a simple port/vuln scan has it's value, as a way to probe for
potential
> risks. A *real* pentest is an attempt to actually make use of
potential
> holes, show they are in fact real risks, and will in fact be able to
be
> exploited to gain illegal//unwanted entry into an org's systems and to
> their core data and apps. At lesat tince Mitnick's days social
> engineering has shown to be a major gateway to resources that should
be
> better protected.
>
> A company asking for a mere set of potentials wants a sweet little
report
> done on a port/vuln scan that anyone with minimal skills can
accomplish.
> A companyt actually wishing to determine how well they have done their
job
> of protecting assests might opt for a full pentest, with all the stops
out
> of the bag. Advance warnings of each and every step is not a level
> playing filed and certainly does not resemble reality for sure.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron DuFresne
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Kevin wrote:
>
> > Well, human are the weakest link in the security ring.. and social
> > engineering is always the easiest (if not the best) technique to
open up
> > loopholes in a security system.
> >
> > Although it's an area which requires most emphasizes and concern, it
is
> > also the most sensitive area where security managers get stuck often
in.
> >
> > If the company is ok with social engineering in the pen test, then I
> > suppose it's ok.. It's ethical as long as you're doing it for a
cause
> > not malicious and harmful.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Blake [mailto:netspan@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:22 AM
> > To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> > Subject: Email Pen-testing
> >
> >
> >
> > Wanted to get your opinion on something...
> >
> > Doing a pen-test for a small bank which was proving very difficult
to
> > get it. A friend of mine suggested I send a backdoor trojan
attachment
> > via an email. If they clicked on it, the backdoor performs maybe a
> > boxscan, grab passwords, and connects out to the Internet. --Much
like a
> > virus.
> >
> > I think this type of testing is becoming more relevant nowadays,
> > especially with whats out there. It reinforces properly configured
> > antivirus software and user awareness.
> >
> > I spoke with a previous customer of mine about the idea. He said he
> > would be very upset if he was not told prior to that type of test as
> > part of normal pen-testing.
> >
> > Generally speaking, my code of ethics doesn't allow me to social
> > engineer. I don't like lying and misleading people. Also people tend
to
> > hate you after they've been punk'd.
> >
> > What's your ideas on the email pen-tesing?
> >
> >
> > -Blake
> >
> >
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--- > > You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team? > > Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest > > techniques from a world-class research group. > > www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > admin & senior security consultant: sysinfo.com > http://sysinfo.com > > "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It > eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the > business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." > -- Johnny Hart > > testing, only testing, and damn good at it too! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team? > Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest > techniques from a world-class research group. > www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > ===== w: http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~james-jac other e: james dot taylor at swiftdsl dot com dot au __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team? Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest techniques from a world-class research group. www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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